Conversation

Notices

1. Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 17-Sep-2017 12:59:27 CEST Danyl Strype
   #ShowerThought To achieve full software freedom on the server-side, we need more than source code.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 17-Sep-2017 13:01:41 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to
     We need server templates, to help people figure out what to use, and what's realistic to self-host given their current and future resources
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 11:47:11 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Mike Gerwitz
     @mikegerwitz more like lists of what services are being offered by a server, using what packages, on what hardware (virtual or bare metal)
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 13:47:18 CEST Danyl Strype

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek I like 100% #P2P in theory, but even as an early adopter of rough-as-guts free code software, I see few practical implementations
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 13:48:43 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek #BitTorrent is great, but it's not 100% #P2P either, because using it depends on tracker servers
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 13:50:30 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Mike Gerwitz
     @mikegerwitz eg what services does the #FSF offer the public and its members? What packages does it use for those? What do those depend on?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 13:52:17 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Mike Gerwitz
     @mikegerwitz is the #FSF server a PC in the corner of the office or a virtual machine in a datacentre? What specs? What does it cost?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 13:53:31 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Mike Gerwitz
     @mikegerwitz if orgs like the #FSF and #Riseup.net publish such documentation, it would be easier for other orgs to set up self-hosting
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 14:16:46 CEST Danyl Strype

     • kat
     @kat Citation please? I thought magnet links were just an alternative to .torrent files, AFAIK they still need trackers.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 14:17:44 CEST Danyl Strype

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek again, in theory I agree with you that #P2P is the ideal. But developing for a diverse range of devices gets really complicated
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 14:18:26 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek servers would be much less of a bottleneck if they were a) federated and b) easy to self-host
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 14:20:02 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek I think there's also a social component to this... 
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 14:20:48 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek Most people tend to live in households (small-scale servers), not hotels (the #STACKS) or one-room apartments (#P2P).
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 14:40:24 CEST Danyl Strype

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek we may be arguing at cross purposes. I too am a big fan of federation, but I use "federated" and "P2P" to mean two different things.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 14:41:53 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek I understand #P2P or "serverless" to mean a mesh network between user devices. "Federation" = user > server > server > user
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 14:43:23 CEST Danyl Strype

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek fair enough ;) My point is that just as not everyone wants to do kernel dev, not everyone want to run their own network services.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 14:44:27 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek the #STACKS are the most obvious evidence of that. But if one in 100 people can learn to self-host their family or friend or org...
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 14:46:05 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek ...then servers cease to be the problematic bottleneck they are now, without completing retooling everything for pure #P2P
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:12:31 CEST Danyl Strype

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek running a #P2P app on their own PC is running their own network services. Servers mean all your need on your PC is a browser
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:13:00 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek if #BitTorrent is so easy to use, why do web-based streaming servers exist?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:13:28 CEST Danyl Strype

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek how so?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:21:01 CEST Danyl Strype

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek I think it's because #PopcornTime requires obtaining extra software and getting it working. Watching streams just needs a browser
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:22:25 CEST Danyl Strype

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek don't all these same issues apply to the scale difference between the #STACKS and #P2P?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:23:40 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek I think what killed office self-hosting is a lack of #GNU-Linux trained office techs, and a plethora of "cloud" snakeoil salespeople
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:24:44 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek I work with lots of community organisations who grasp the ethics of software freedom, but can't afford commercial free code prices
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:25:44 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek if there was an easy-to-use distro like #FreedomBone or #YUNOHost aimed at small-to-medium organisations, lots more would self-host
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:26:50 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek just like lots more organisations started using #GNU-Linux on the desktop when #Ubuntu made it much easier to do
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:27:51 CEST Danyl Strype

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek #WebTorrent! http://qttr.at/1y54
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:28:41 CEST Danyl Strype

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek the two are effectively inseparable. People's individual actions are constained or emancipated in all sorts of ways by what orgs do
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:31:06 CEST Danyl Strype

     • rysiek ✅
     • Xil
     @xil @rysiek no, #P2P is mesh network between apps running on the end user devices only. Federation is client-server though
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:33:13 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     • Xil
     @rysiek @xil ISPs in my country either impose monthly data caps, or "reasonable" use conditions and "traffic-shaping" of various kinds
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:34:11 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     • Xil
     @rysiek @xil this doesn't stop people running normal servers, but severely limits how much they can be used. This is a self-hosting issue
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:35:47 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     @rysiek eg the Green party here have policy supporting "open source" in gov, and used to use #CiviCRM, but got sold #NationBuilder
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:36:53 CEST Danyl Strype

     • rysiek ✅
     • Xil
     @xil @rysiek theoretically this is a threat, but I've never come across an example in the wild. Good protocol design and exception-handling?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:42:23 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil where would the ports be blocked?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:49:27 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil so you're speculating that ISPs would be forced to limit users by either government regulation or business relationships?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:50:14 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil otherwise, the only reason I can see for ISPs to limit users is to keep their own upstream costs manageable. Mostly they're on our side
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:51:38 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil if everyone started self-hosting using PCs in their own buildings, ISPs would just up connection or traffic prices to compensate
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:52:20 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil of course if we replaced corporate ISPs with customer-owned coops, we could protect against any price gouging or user limiting
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:54:45 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil the problem with that is most internet stuff is 2-way by design. Port 80 needs both incoming and outgoing packets for a browser to work
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:55:33 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil if you can use a web browser on port 80, you can run a webserver on port 80
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:56:40 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil little bit of history, in the 90s corporate firewalls tended to block all ports except for 80 (and maybe a handful of others)
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:57:16 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil which is why almost all net services became web-based (or "Port 80 pollution" as the greybeards call it)
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 15:59:40 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil I don't know much about port forwarding, but AFAIK if you haven't blocked port 80 on your machine or your router, it's open
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:01:05 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil closed by what?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:08:59 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil how do HTTP queries get from your browser to web servers, to ask them to send your PC the page you clicked on?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:10:06 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil that's why we need to fight for #NetNeutrality. That way it would be illegal for ISPs to do anything that limits normal net use
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:13:09 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil for more info check out http://qttr.at/1y56
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:16:06 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil hmm, my TCP/IP networking knowledge is clearly a bit rusty ;) It has been almost 20 years since I studied it
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:18:05 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil my understanding is telecos wanted to be able to charge extra for more reliable packet delivery, which only #FarceBook etc could afford
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:19:48 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil but if it's a browser initiates an HTTP request to a webserver, doesn't that need an open port to go out?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:20:43 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil the server can't do anything until it gets the request, right?
   • Nobody [LinuxWalt (@lnxw48a1)] (lnxw48a1)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:24:11 CEST Nobody [LinuxWalt (@lnxw48a1)]

     in reply to

     • rysiek ✅
     @strypey @rysiek There used to be low cost & zero cost mail servers that ran on Windows, too. Even some free software ones. Now Gmail & MSCloud have gobbled their userbase up.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:24:49 CEST Danyl Strype

     • kat
     @kat cool. What about searching for torrents? Still need #TPB for that ;) Although #FrostWire has built-in search (not sure how it works)
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:25:56 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil so doesn't your browser need port 80 open to send out that initial HTTP request?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:27:06 CEST Danyl Strype

     • rysiek ✅
     • Nobody [LinuxWalt (@lnxw48a1)]
     @lnxw48a1 @rysiek my Dad's union office used run their own mailserver (on Windows). Now they use Office365 :(
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:35:06 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil sounds like you have much more practical experience with this than me. I change nothing on my router or PC firewall
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:39:10 CEST Danyl Strype

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     @bram I can so help with this! Follow up by email and I'll happily help work up a list. Contacts here http://qttr.at/1g9s
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:42:26 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil ae, there are corporate interests who want to turn the internet back into network TV. #NetNeutrality must be defended politically
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:44:40 CEST Danyl Strype

     • kat
     @kat but I'm hesitant to politicize architecture theories any more than they already are, but I see what you're getting at
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:46:21 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil is sounds like we probably don't agree on *why* a free internet is important, but we agree that it is important, so that's something ;P
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:47:50 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil I don't want opinions I disagree with to be censored for the same reason I don't want my opinions censored. That's "free speech"
     Nobody [LinuxWalt (@lnxw48a1)] likes this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:49:45 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil the technical freedom protects the communication freedom, that's the way I see it
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:56:36 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil the net isn't new in that respect. The railways, the postal service, telegram, and then telephone were/ are all international systems
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 16:58:14 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil state boundaries have always been permeable membranes, and international cooperation is as old as "nation-states"
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:03:18 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil probably the biggest threat right now is the extension of the #STACKS into cars, homes, cities, transport etc
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:03:52 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil but there are also huge opportunities for open source communities to partner with neighbourhoods and city government to head them off
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:04:42 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil what for?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:10:16 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil nah, "decentralized" just means "not centralized", it doesn't mean "not networked"
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:11:22 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil the web is decentralized. If all websites had to be hosted on one giant server it would be centralized
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:11:59 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil there are projects to set up local mesh networks, but as a supplement to the global net, not a replacement for it
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:14:38 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil censorship is bad, but Milo is disappointing excuse for a human being, and the guy who wrote this article is full of shit
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:17:39 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil hmm. Local mesh networks use wireless towers, sometimes with no backhaul to the internet, so folks can chat and share locally
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:18:42 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil but because of IPv4 (limited address space), lots of people are on large networks with only one IP, especially corporate networks
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:19:46 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil Basically, yeah. Australia has some pretty shitty net censorship laws. The domain registrar is based there and has to abide by them.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:21:01 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil our house has only one IP address, shared by 4 residents and anyone else who uses the net here.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:21:30 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil legally, the person whose name is on the account is liable for anything that it gets used for
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:22:26 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil no, totally separate thing. I brought them up in relation to defining what "decentralized" does and doesn't usually mean
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:23:45 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil we could probably get that. I know you can pay extra here for a fixed IP (AFAIK we are still on a dynamic IP)
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:24:24 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil which was probably one of the reasons they used to block all the ports they didn't absolutely have to keep open ;)
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:34:08 CEST Danyl Strype

     • Xil
     @xil I guess it's like the relationship between Amazon and public libraries. Technically they compete to supply the same thing but...
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:35:06 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil ...ISPs and wireless mesh exist on such different scales, and with such different motivations, that they don't really clash (yet)
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:35:47 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil if a global, community-run wireless network like the #FreeNetworkFoundation became viable, that would be a different story
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:36:31 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Xil
     @xil it would be great for #NetNeutrality, but as big a threat to commercial ISPs as file-sharing has been to media companies
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:37:41 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     @bram just quickly, it's not just the packages, it's having them working out-of-the-box, with easy wizards for configuration etc
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 18-Sep-2017 17:38:28 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     @bram one org I work with has about 500 members, and 1 tech guy, who gets about $200  year. They can't afford complicated ;)
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Sep-2017 12:42:46 CEST Danyl Strype

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     @bram thanks, I have to admit testing #YUNOHost hasn't got to the top of the TODO list yet. Definitely email me so I can follow up
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Sep-2017 12:43:53 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     @bram I' want to start self-hosting some services for http://qttr.at/1y2j, and I intend to test #YUNOHost, #FreedomBone, and #FreedomBox
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Sep-2017 12:46:05 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     @bram another thing is clear advice about stuff like when it's practical to use #YUNOHost on bare metal in the office vs. in a datacentre
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Sep-2017 13:33:46 CEST Danyl Strype

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     @bram #interrnetcu.be looks like it's aiming for a similar result to the #FreedomBox or running #FreedomBone on a #Beaglebone. Tried them?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Sep-2017 13:34:44 CEST Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     @bram if so, how would you say #YUNOHost compares to them, both pros and cons?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Sep-2017 13:36:29 CEST Danyl Strype

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     @bram thanks. If it's better for you, flick that link on to another project member who's more email based, but we can keep chatting here too
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Sep-2017 13:38:01 CEST Danyl Strype

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     • Fédération FDN
     @bram any documentation on the @federationfdn I can browse? Sounds like a great project!
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Sep-2017 13:39:45 CEST Danyl Strype

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     • Fédération FDN
     @bram so where does being part of #YUNOHost fit in with your @federationfdn /#Internetcu.be work?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Sep-2017 13:48:25 CEST Danyl Strype

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     @bram ok so, #YUNOHost is the distribution that runs under the hood of an #internetcu.be?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Sep-2017 13:56:39 CEST Danyl Strype

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     @bram how many in total for #YUNOHost do you think?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Sep-2017 14:17:46 CEST Danyl Strype

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     @bram something akin to the instance maps and scale visualizations people have done for the #Fediverse and #Federation?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Sep-2017 14:44:13 CEST Danyl Strype

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     @bram mutual backup buddies and shared but group private analytics would be fantastic!
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Sep-2017 14:49:09 CEST Danyl Strype

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     @bram sorry, that's just what I thought you meant by "friends monitor each other".
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 21-Sep-2017 10:37:49 CEST Danyl Strype

     • ❤ Bram ❤
     @bram what sort of skills would people need to help with the #YUNOHost project?