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Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2017 01:31:53 CET 
Danyl Strype
@natecull maybe I was reading between the lines but the point I took away was that an "alternative" depends on a "mainstream" ... -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 05-Oct-2017 07:22:46 CEST
Danyl Strype
@natecull @enkiv2 @pnathan @stuc "cloud" was an excellent sales con for convincing companies to swap perfectly good self-hosted servers... -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 05-Oct-2017 07:24:17 CEST
Danyl Strype
@enkiv2 @pnathan @natecull @stuc ...for remote crap controlled elsewhere, that charges them every time they want to change how they use it -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 05-Oct-2017 07:32:19 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @enkiv2 @natecull @stuc define "solid technology architecture" -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 03:18:01 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @enkiv2 @natecull @stuc this was the arguments for mainframes and dumb terminals. Remind me what happened when PCs took off? -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 03:27:39 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan yup, my reasoning is similar to what @natecull said . Cloud = folks like Mencius Goldbug pwning your data
http://qttr.at/1ysm -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 03:31:06 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull Amazon has warehouse workers living in tents because they can't afford rent. Peter Thiel all but bought citizenship of NZ -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 03:33:27 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull These are not trustworthy people to have running essential public data infrastructure
http://qttr.at/1ysn -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 04:10:44 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan to the degree that's true, it's because of Microsoft and proprietary software, not PCs. The"cloud" is the server-side equivalent -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 04:14:52 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan "cloud" is even harder than client-side proprietary software for users (or in-house tech people) to study and modify for their need -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 04:16:07 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan link please? I'd be interested to have a read -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 04:32:16 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan cool. My wife used #Zotero for tracking sources for her PhD, it's a good tool for sharing bibliography with notes -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 04:53:15 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan anyway I agree that we're talking about different measures; technical efficiency vs. social outcomes. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 04:55:29 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan it's possible to have the pros of "cloud" *and* provide transparency, use free code, and respect users #Disroot
http://qttr.at/1yss -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 10:08:50 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan before he founded the #GNUProject, Stallman considered a lobbying campaign to make software freedom a set of legal requirements... -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 10:09:44 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan ... at the time he felt a direct action project to rebuild proprietary software and liberate it seemed more politically realistic. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 10:12:25 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan given the role of both state and corporations in the surveillance Armageddon, I don't see any reason to think that's changed -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 10:14:49 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan he's not the only person in the industry who sees #DirectAction as more realistic than relying on regulation
http://qttr.at/1yt1 -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 10:26:50 CEST
Danyl Strype
@natecull @pnathan I'm *very* suspicious of arguments based on increasing "efficiency". Privatization of public good often starts there -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 11:36:09 CEST
Danyl Strype
@szbalint doesn't seem to agree that "cloud" provides better performance either @pnathan @enkiv2 @natecull @stuc
http://qttr.at/1yt2 -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 11:36:53 CEST
Danyl Strype
@enkiv2 @pnathan @natecull @stuc @szbalint IMHO a VM that doesn't work exactly the same as your OS running on bare metal is faulty -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 11:38:28 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan see also the #TEDTalk by #TristanHarris, formerly of the GoogleBeast
http://qttr.at/1yt3Bob Mottram and Danyl Strype like this.Bob Mottram repeated this. -
Bob Mottram (bob)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2017 12:33:51 CEST 
Bob Mottram
@strypey @pnathan I think he makes a good point, and it's one which the companies driven by shareholder profit won't be able to do much about without reducing their profits. But the kind of thing he describes could be an opportunity for the fediverse and other systems which aren't simply profit driven. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 03:55:16 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @cjd wow. Where to start. Centralization and standardization are two *totally* different things. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 03:56:06 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @cjd the fact that you would argue otherwise makes it clear that you are arguing backwards from an assumption... -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 03:56:50 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @cjd ...rather than arguing towards whatever conclusion the data might actually lead to. #TrueBeliever -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 03:58:26 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @cjd the premise you are committed to is "centralization is good" > "cloud is good". I accept neither assumption -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 03:59:24 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @cjd some level of coordination has benefits over none. For example, I support the development of (libre) standards. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 04:01:07 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @cjd But history shows that centralization leads to fragile system, not to mention tyranny (eg USSR). -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 04:02:50 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @cjd decentralized systems may be less "efficient", but they are *much* more resilient. Bob Mottram likes this. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 04:03:16 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @cjd when the #birdsite goes down, it *all* goes down. Very few conditions could bring the entire #fediverse down Bob Mottram repeated this. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 04:19:48 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @cjd all that said, I do support campaigns for better regulation. For example:
http://qttr.at/1w75 -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 04:20:36 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @cjd but regulating an amorphous global phenomenon like the net is far from simple... -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 04:22:39 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @cjd ...even without powerful industries who don't want better international regulation, and who block it at every turn -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 04:24:12 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @cjd playing whack-a-mole with #TheStacks and startups seems less effective longterm than providing replacements for them -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 05:01:06 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @cjd it's an anarchist premise that centralization and standardization are not the same thing? -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 05:02:44 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @cjd I thought that was just pointing out the obvious. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 05:09:52 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @cjd but ok, let's see if I can respond individually to each of your scenarios in 140 characters or less -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 05:10:55 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan I agree these are risks but this is what we already see happening in #TheStacks. In the #Fediverse people have the option to move -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 05:13:25 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan we're not just talking about a hammer. We're talking about where we buy hammers, how they're made etc. People do care about this Bob Mottram likes this. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 05:14:30 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan most people won't make their own hammer, true, but they would buy a #FairTrade hammer over a sweatshop hammer, for example -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 05:16:06 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan many people would buy the #FairTrade hammer *even* if costs more, and isn't as technically perfect (yet) as the sweatshop hammer -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 05:16:36 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan This is a strawman. @natecull isn't an anarchist either. He and I have many debates about the pros and cons of the state. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 05:20:05 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan this is a false dichotomy. It's not an either/ or. Free software activists are more likely to be politically active than most folks -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 08:47:29 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @cjd I don't disagree with any of this. But that doesn't mean the opposite of this = true. Given two options, I take the third -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 08:48:27 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @cjd besides, although my views are informed by theory, they're just as informed by what worked in my experiences as an organiser Bob Mottram likes this. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 08:49:51 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @cjd so the solution to the CoC problem is having the state enforce a universal CoC on all gatherings of 3 or more people. No? -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 08:51:15 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @cjd could it be that there's a cultural shift required that can't be magically made to happen by rule change enforced from above? -
Nate Cull (natecull)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 08:51:27 CEST 
Nate Cull
@pnathan @strypey I also think the architectural ideas of Christopher 'A Pattern Language' Alexander are sensible. And the economic ideas of Michael Albert.
I think the best social organisation - and one we see in biological systems - is not massive hub-and-spokes centralisation, but recursive federations which themselves federate.
Centralise the things which *make sense* to centralise. Which should only be *what smaller units can't handle themselves*.
This seems a universal pattern to me.
Danyl Strype and Bob Mottram repeated this. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 08:52:04 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @cjd this says it quite nicely:
http://qttr.at/1ytx -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 08:54:39 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan my thinking on this is a bit different @natecull. I'm strongly opposed to geo-blocking and other unnecessary geographical barriers Bob Mottram likes this. -
Nate Cull (natecull)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 08:54:50 CEST
Nate Cull
Ie, I agree with the critique that the economic Right has long made against the Left (styled as the USSR) - that ground-up democratic decentralisation is generally better than top-down centralisation.
Where I differ with the Right is that I believe the market, left to itself, tends to over-centralise in a few winners. So a democratic state can act as a counterbalance to the otherwise unchecked centralising power of commerce.
Danyl Strype and Bob Mottram repeated this. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 08:55:12 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull ...and putting a Google or #FarceBook datacentre in NZ doesn't get to the root of the problem of #TheStacks -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 08:56:16 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull I'd rather use a community-owned, free code service hosted outside of #NZ than a corporate-owned, proprietary one in NZ Bob Mottram likes this. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 08:58:25 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull but I do think public service data should be hosted in the same territory as the service, under the same laws Bob Mottram likes this. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 09:01:23 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull for similar reasons, I think it makes sense for businesses that are not themselves transnational to host data locally -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 09:04:42 CEST
Danyl Strype
@natecull FWIW my wife and I are on a benefit and we can afford to eat locally sourced, organic food. Helps that we don't drink or smoke ;) -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 09:06:23 CEST
Danyl Strype
@natecull @pnathan true, but we have to learn from the successes *and* failures of the 'back to the land' movement. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 09:07:16 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull they learned that while increasing community self-sufficiency has merit, larger scale (inter-dependence) does too Bob Mottram repeated this. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 09:08:15 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull even if we can establish a #P2P app ecosystem running on a #FreeNetwork, we still need PCs manufactured and distributed -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 09:09:21 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull these things can be done more independently too, but there's a point where atomization becomes more brittle, not less Bob Mottram likes this.Bob Mottram repeated this. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 09:11:52 CEST
Danyl Strype
@natecull @pnathan I'm sure many books have been written on 'back to the land', I'm only going on chats with folks I've met in communities -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 09:12:34 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull a common theme is that creating independent economies is part of a social change strategy, not a replacement for one -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 09:16:10 CEST
Danyl Strype
@natecull but I take your point about the trade-offs of 'ethical consumption'. If I apply all my ethical filters all the time I buy nothing -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 09:17:44 CEST
Danyl Strype
@natecull @pnathan I've often thought about that generation of "cyberspace" techno-utopians as the indigenous people of the internet -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 09:19:18 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull they were both displaced by, and found reinforcements in, the 1990s "DotCom" generation of which we were both a part -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 09:20:06 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull I wonder what those of us defending the indigenous culture of the net could learn from other indigenous rights movements? -
Bob Mottram (bob)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 09:22:28 CEST
Bob Mottram
@strypey @natecull @pnathan this is what I've sometimes rather badly tried to explain. Building individual autonomy is useful, but at some threat level individualism becomes an exploitable failure mode. I know because I've seen it happen. -
Bob Mottram (bob)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 09:51:21 CEST
Bob Mottram
@strypey @pnathan once you begin to see beyond the obfuscating power of the money form then the messed up nature of many economic relationships becomes more apparent. -
Bob Mottram (bob)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 09:57:23 CEST
Bob Mottram
@strypey @natecull @pnathan @cjd efficiency is another of those distraction words. There are many sorts of efficiency. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 12:43:28 CEST
Danyl Strype
@natecull @bob @pnathan @cjd cancer is *very* efficient. That's why it can grow exponentially... -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 12:43:39 CEST
Danyl Strype
@bob @pnathan @natecull @cjd and why it has such high productivity ;-P #InvestInCancer -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 14:04:39 CEST
Danyl Strype
@gcupc @pnathan I think @natecull and I have come to the conclusion that what he means by "state" (neutral coordinating entity)... -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 14:06:04 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @gcupc ...and what we mean by state (monopoly on the use of force in a given territory) are quite different things. -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 14:07:13 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @gcupc I think what @natecull means by "state" could be, in anarchist terms, something like 'federation of public commons bodies' -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Monday, 09-Oct-2017 14:09:00 CEST
Danyl Strype
@pnathan @natecull @gcupc the work of Elinor Ostrom might be relevant. Commons are not passive resource but stewardships
http://qttr.at/1yub -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2017 00:51:14 CET
Danyl Strype
@natecull @pnathan this piece offers some useful insights into why the Californian revolution seems to have failed
http://qttr.at/20c3 -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2017 01:33:03 CET
Danyl Strype
@natecull ... and when the "mainstream" is replaced by a new normal that looks more like a braided river (a network society) ... -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2017 01:34:05 CET
Danyl Strype
@natecull ... the very concept of an "alternative" made up of "subcultures" becomes inherently obsolete, leaving us all somewhat marooned -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2017 01:35:45 CET
Danyl Strype
@natecull in a sense, the "alternative" movement won, but we were dead wrong that a networked society would automatically distribute power -
Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2017 01:38:40 CET
Danyl Strype
@natecull ... because it's just as good at distributing orders, advertising, manipulation, disinfo etc
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